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*** AMD "Zen 4" thread (inc AM5/APU discussion) ***

Soldato
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Power / heat may become issues - will be interesting how they stack up on relative performance per watt.
Yes, it looks like that was on a 16C part? Not for me :) I think my 5800X3D should last me until Zen5 for what I use it for. Looking forward to see how people get on with it though vs Intel's offerings.
 
Soldato
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Didn't they just troll Intel with that render benchmark? I mean it'll be September before they launch, so in theory Intel could release Raptor Lake before that, but that means the 13900K with 24c/32t would need to beat the 12900K by 31% with only extra e-cores and some cache, and we know cache doesn't do much for that type of application, and that would only then match a pre-production sample of Zen4 16c/32t part, but you are buying the last CPU available on that socket vs the first on AMD's AM5.

Going to be interesting to see how this pans out over the next few months, especially for those people on the precipice of upgrading. :)
 
Soldato
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I should move up to a 5800X3D and be happy, but upgradevitus might kick in and make me go all out lol.
Lol, if you can afford it why not. I have too many competing interests/demands on the cash so I'll be watching from the sidelines :)
 
Associate
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I should move up to a 5800X3D and be happy, but upgradevitus might kick in and make me go all out lol.
Zen4 looks amazing.
But for me, a fast gpu is first on the list due to my vega56 is showing its age for my games and then likely a 5800x3d and then wait a year for the zen4 buy
 
Soldato
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Didn't they just troll Intel with that render benchmark? I mean it'll be September before they launch, so in theory Intel could release Raptor Lake before that, but that means the 13900K with 24c/32t would need to beat the 12900K by 31% with only extra e-cores and some cache, and we know cache doesn't do much for that type of application, and that would only then match a pre-production sample of Zen4 16c/32t part, but you are buying the last CPU available on that socket vs the first on AMD's AM5.

Going to be interesting to see how this pans out over the next few months, especially for those people on the precipice of upgrading. :)

I haven't done double-checked but I believe (in Cenebench R23 at least) the 8 E-Cores on the 12900K account for ~30% of the result, so assuming no power/thermal issues it might be close.

Although, and I can't go back and re-watch the video right now, but does Lisa (or the smallprint) actually say it's the 7950X? The slide/demo just said "Ryzen 7000 series" and it looks like the 5950X already beats the 12900K in Blender in which case a 31% over the 12900K isn't all that great... (According to: https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/core-i9-12900k-review,9.html)
 
Soldato
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Cinebench is a poor test to measure IPC, but that's all we have for now. Seems like there's little to no IPC improvements this time.
 
Soldato
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Not so much.

"We’ve been working on the supply chain really for the last four or five quarters, knowing the growth that we have from a product standpoint and the visibility that we have from customers. So in regards to [the] 2022 supply environment, we’ve made significant investments in wafer capacity, as well as substrate capacity and back-end capacity."

Lisa Su comments from the last earnings call.
To be fair most 'pc' companies have been saying this of late.... the issue is there's still only so much fab space to go around so while it might be better (and hopefully not as interesting to scalpers/crypto this time) I'm still expecting there to be reduced supply on gpu's and cpu's
 
Soldato
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To be fair most 'pc' companies have been saying this of late.... the issue is there's still only so much fab space to go around so while it might be better (and hopefully not as interesting to scalpers/crypto this time) I'm still expecting there to be reduced supply on gpu's and cpu's
Supply and demand. If there is less demand from miners and they start dumping cards we could be in the situation where everyone who wants a card has one with some to spare.
 
Soldato
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Are we seeing the end of Keller's magic sauce?
I think we have seen the end of this design iteration of Zen, Zen 4 looks like Zen 3 on steroids with more cache and faster clocks without much change to base design. AMD seem to have spent most of the previous 2 years designing and building out the AM5 platform and working on Zen 5 which will likely be similar to Alder Lake in terms of using a hybrid design of performance and lower power cores.

Zen 4 still could be a decent buy so long as AMD aren't stilly with the pricing, if they get it out early enough they might be able to charge a small premium over Zen 3 before Raptor Lake lunches but if RL leaves it for dust prices will have drop. Of course that's not factoring in the impact of the cost of living and people disposable incomes and the likely recession in Q4.
 
Associate
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Keller left AMD 6 or 7 years ago.

Fair enough but I think the foundational paradigm lasts quite a while, doesn't it?
I'm not saying Keller did all the work, far from it, but we might be entering into the land of diminishing returns of the Zen paradigm (although to be fair one should take into account the die area taken by iGPU and AVX512) and AMD should up their game into the next generation.

Zen's performance progression so far has been nothing short of phenomenal but we might be either seeing a stumbling block or a temporary performance sacrifice in order to gain additional features. That is of course unless AMD chose to hide some surprises from the public!
 
Soldato
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Keller left AMD 6 or 7 years ago.
True but Zen+ through to Zen 3 and probably Zen 4 are just re-works and improvements over the orignal Zen architecture (I say 'just' that's not to put anyone down as the improvements have been fantastic but to emphasise it's not a new, new design from the ground up) so it does look like Jim Keller's Zen is now at the end of road and AMD needs to switch to new design for Zen 5.
 
Caporegime
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Fair enough but I think the foundational paradigm lasts quite a while, doesn't it?
I'm not saying Keller did all the work, far from it, but we might be entering into the land of diminishing returns of the Zen paradigm (although to be fair one should take into account the die area taken by iGPU and AVX512) and AMD should up their game into the next generation.

Zen's performance progression so far has been nothing short of phenomenal but we might be either seeing a stumbling block or a temporary performance sacrifice in order to gain additional features. That is of course unless AMD chose to hide some surprises from the public!

I'm not seeing any slowdown on AMD CPU's yet or for the near future.

Zen was designed by Mike Clark, the same person who designed the Athlon architecture, not Jim Keller, Mike Clark is still with AMD, he's been there for decades.
 
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